I just want to throw my hat in about the new cards, since everyone's been hatin'
on them.
The problem with Kamigawa is that it's too theme oriented. They wanted to make
a set with a cool theme, and they succeeded. But the cost was taken in
playability. The development of the game took a backseat to theme, which has
nothing to do with actual gameplay. This is not good for the overall health of
the game. Masques block, Homelands, Fallen Empires and The Dark were backstory
dominated, but these sets are basically awful, and while I don't think Kamigawa
was as bad, it's clearly in that camp.
Mirrodin was *wonderful* from the perspective of advancing the gameplay. The
power level was very high, in fact, they pushed the envelope to the point where
bannings occured. You have cards like Thirst for Knowledge, Pentavus and
Mindslaver that bascially enabled a new archetype in Vintage, which is now
arguably the best deck in the format. But you don't want sets like this coming
out all the time or else you get "power creep," where overall power of
cards increases as time goes on.
So what I'm saying is that new cards rule. Old cards are awesome too, but most
of those old cards we love so much are mistakes that, had the developers known
then what we know now in hindsight, never would have been printed. The only way
the game progresses is with new cards. If you want to take a look at Vintage
pre-2000, you see what happens when the Magic stagnates. Monoblue everywhere.
There was only one playable deck. Everything else lost to it. But then came
Psychatog, the Madness mechanic, Onslaught fetchlands, Goblin Warchief, the
Storm mechanic, Mindslaver, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Crucible of
Worlds, Goblin Charbelcher and many others, and now Vintage is in an almost
unintelligable state of flux.
Anyway, for the few of you who have been around this game as long as I have, I
hope this makes some sense to you. For those of you who haven't, All I'm saying
is that this is the best time to play magic ever. I wouldn't trade Magic today
for Magic any time in the past.
Quote by lens-seph
"Kodama of the north tree" (3rd turn)
"Ok. I play Wrath of God."
">.<"
Those are fighting words, playa. Hehe! My response isn't
">.<", although that's a good one! For the sake of argument I
actually drop 3rd turn North Tree (because If you drop plains and no white
weenies, I probably wouldn't overextend into a WoG like that.) You can bet games
2 and 3 I'll be sporting the ever sexy 3rd turn Plow Under. I hope you like
drawing land
Another reason I like North Tree is just for that reason. You have to Wrath it
or else it will probably kill you, thus clearing the way for me to play other
threats. Course this gets more complicated if you run countermagic, but hey,
I'm aggro. I make the threats an you have to answer or lose. White control is
pretty solid, I know you've probably got some tricks i'm not thinking of of
yet...
I have to agree with you, I really like the art of this block. Personally
thrilled that Rebecca Guay is back in it. Best artist ever.
Which is why Kodama of the North Tree is my favorite card from
Champions/Betrayers/Saviors. It even *looks* badass. 3rd turn North Tree is
such a beating, I can't wait for Llanowar Elves to be Type 2 legal again...
Actually I'm kind of impressed with this set. I think my favorite card is
Sakashima the Imposter. A tounament worthy Clone you say?? Celestial Kirin
seems very strong, the potential for ridiculous board control is high. Ideas
Unbound makes me very nervous, and I think hindsight will prove it was a mistake
to have printed it. I really like Kuon, Ogre Ascendent. Mikokoro, Center of
the Sea may be very good or incredibly average. Thoughts of Ruin is insanely
good, and I think it singlehandedly turns the current Champions block
constructed metagame on it's head. Pithing Needle is a card that will see play
A LOT, definitely a chase rare. There's quite a few other cards I like also.
Overall the set seems kind of weak, and I don't like the "cards in
hand" theme, but I think there are enough interesting cards to make it
worthwhile.
I'd also like to say that Path of Anger's Flame is ridiculous in draft. I
smashed people a the pre-release all day long with it.
t goblinking: Firstly I must apologize, I got my oni confused. I meant to
suggest Gutwrencher Oni who has trample. If you only have Painwracker Oni in
play, you have to sacrifice it. But if you have no cards in your hand during
your upkeep, Gutwrencher Oni doesn't care.
So the first thing you need to do is decide what you want out of your deck. Do
you want to play aggressively or do you want to play control. If you think
about a typical game, how do you want to win. Pick a philosopy. 3-Color with
Hondens is going to be slow and ponderous, with a lot of investment put into a
"lock," but you're going to have the inevitiability that the longer
the game goes, the better your chances of winning. If you want to play
aggressively, you need consistancy and redundancy, you want efficient creatures
with low mana costs, and you want to attack as much as possible. This favors
the green/black as you don't have to worry about getting three different colors
of mana, and these colors tend to have very efficient creatures. Either of
these decks is workable but it just depends on how you want to play the game.
And when you choose cards, think about how it fits into your strategy.
I'll take Gutwrencher Oni as an example, since I discussed it before. This is a
great top end threat for an aggressive deck. 5/4 for 5 mana makes it very
efficient, and it has trample. It has an upkeep, but think of it this way: If
you have no cards in your hand, you don't have to discard anything. When you
play aggro, you empty your hand relatively fast. You should pretty much have
nothing left in your hand when you play it, so the upkeep is negligable. It
doesn't matter that you're not playing ogres, you don't have to. You still
draw your card and you're most likely going to be able to play it so you won't
have to discard. Also Gutwrencher Oni looooooves Strength of Cedars!
But if you look at a slower, control oriented deck, this is a bad choice.
You're going to be discarding cards that you need to set up your late game.
Efficient threats are less important since you have the time to develop your
mana base and play a large, easily protectible threat.
I feel like I have to share this. I am the worst magic player EVER!
So I'm playing at a Trial for Grand Prix Minneapolis, it's Champions/Betrayers
constructed. It's the last round before top 8, winner of the match goes on,
loser goes home. We split the first two games, so it's all down to game 3.
It's like turn 80 or so, the only thing either of us has in play is land. He
plays Meloku on his turn and passes. I untap, play Time of Need for my own
Meloku, and play it and they both die. In response, he makes 4 1/1 flying
Spirit tokens. He untaps and serves for 4. I peel Kodama of the North Tree,
drop it, and pass. He attacks for 4 and passes. I'm in trouble because my
North Tree can't win that footrace.
But I peel Godo, Bandit Warlord, play it, and search out Umezawa's Jitte, attack
with North Tree and pass. He attacks for 4, plays a Sakura-Tribe Elder and
passes, leaving me at 3 . So I untap, draw, and attack with Godo. He elects
not to block, takes 3, and my Jitte gets 2 counters. I then PASS THE turn!!!!!!
What is Godo's other ability?? He untaps and gets to attack again!!!!! But no,
I leave him tapped and pass the turn. He attacks, I kill 2 1/1s with jitte,
going to 1. So I untap, attack with Godo, get my 2 counters, and PASS THE TURN
AGAIN!!!!
Oh, but it get's better. He peels Kodama of the North Tree and plays it, so
both die. Now, with no blockers, he can attack with his Sakura-Tribe Elder, and
2 spirits. I can kill two with Jitte, but I can't block the other one, and I'm
at 1 life, SO I SCOOP!
What is Jitte's third ability??? You can remove a counter to GAIN 2 life! So
the play would be to kill 1 of the fliers and gain 2 life. But no. I had a
better plan. My plan was to scoop and miss Top 8. You can see why my plan
worked out so well...
Quote by GoblinkingHey, anybody in
here that has experience makn a spirit deck. Coz
kamingawa spirits are hard to make up. Very confusing. I was thinking
bout makin a soulshift deck then a fast one then a tough one ..........
at the end it was all but fast ..... and believe me I like fast. being
slow I gotta wait three rounds before a lousy spirit comes out.
Compared to my goblin deck ( now thats what i call fast and deadly ) in
three rounds i could already have three goblins................ thinkin
of it makes me proud to be their king .... hahaha ...... so back to the
point, anybody got tips
Try this: Play red/black. Blademane Baku + spirits and arcane spells = large
attacker. So run stuff like Glacial Ray and Horobi's Whisper for removal to
clear the way. Thief of Hope is really good, I also like Wicked Akuba a lot,
and the zuberas aren't terrible, Frostling either. Then you use Devouring Greed
for your kill. All of that stuff is common, so it shouldn't be too hard to get.
Oh, run that 5/4 fear demon, whatever he's called, he's a beater. If you have
access to more valuable stuff like Kokusho or Yukora the Prisoner, that's pretty
good too. It's not a deck that's going to win you any pro-tours, but it's kinda
fun, and has a relatively quick clock. If you're looking for *fast* in Kamigawa
though, you're not going to find it.
Quote by Angel-on-Dragon
I was there two years ago when I had the luck that it took place in
Berlin, where I come from *lol* It was really great. But I learnd to
beware of what I wear....
[url=http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/images/worlds03/508.jpg]Or this
can happen.....[/url]
all i can say is that I've been playing Magic for like 9 years and I've never
seen that at a tournament. Ever. I remember this one time we had a tournament
at the local Mall, and this hot girl who worked at American Eagle came in and
gave us all $10 off coupons. I think it was akward for her. *shrug*
If I may make a suggestion Impera, get a set of Natural Orders. You should be
able to get a playset of 4 for under $10 on ebay or the like. It's like Tinker,
except for fatties. You could cut down to more base green and run stuff like
Llanowars, Fyndhorns, and Priest of Titania for acceleration. They can attack
for 1, unlike birds, and you can Natural Order out Sliver Queen rather than
casting it directly. Instead of burn, just Rancor up your Verdant and go
straight to the dome, or if you need some extra "kill you," run old
school Hurricane. That's what I would do anyway...
Quote by Impera
Well it runs a pair of sliver queens along with a verdant force, the
allmighty COAT OF arms, some swords TO plowshares, some counterspell
among others, with a beautifull MOX emerald. If the deck does not wins
by token infestation, it hase some more power behind with a great mana
engine. I still need to modify it to have more direct damage but the
budget runs short !!
ok now i'm curious... how does your manabase support all that stuff? please
tell me you run Natural Order... i don't know if this deck sounds all that
agressive to me. you certainly have the "large man advantage," but
when I think of aggro, I think of Jackal Pups and Rancor-ed Ghazban Ogres
swingin it in. You even play those traitorous counterspells and are willing to
give your opponent life by Swords!! argh! at least you have a sweet mox emerald
what do you run in extended? do you have any thoughts on the upcoming rotation
in october?
Man, monoblack clerics is one of my favorite decks! Got the whole cabal
archon/rotlung reanimator thing going with Graveborn Muse, I love Graveborn
Muse. Necropotence taped onto a hill giant? I'll have some of that please. I
love my plan vs control, Duress and Cabal therapies flying all over and when
Braids hits play, good night.
Oh, in response to the one guy who asked why I dislike monoblue control, I don't
agree with the control philosopy. I don't like being reactive, I'm proactive
and agressive. Better to create threats than respond to them. There's an old
piece of magic theory that says: "there are no wrong threats, only wrong
answers." So, using my cleric deck as an example, I make the mono blue
answers wrong by proactive discard. Then I attempt to wear away the
counterspell wall (they can't counter everything), and lastly I drop GBM to bury
them under card advantage or Braids to wreck their mana base.
i also find a lot of pleasure in beating "the unbeatable counterspell
deck." I'm not saying that monoblue is bad, it's certainly proven over and
over again that it is definitely top notch. But lots of people mistakenly think
"counter everything" is a strategy, when it's really just a part of
the greater puzzle. *shrug*
what up, guys? i guess introductions are in order. like, i dig anime and
japanese culture and all that, but magic is my one true addiciton. I'm a
walking encyclopedia of magic, a veritable well of decklists and magic theory.
I consider myself a competitive player, as opposed to casual, cuz i usually try
to break whatever format i'm playing. but as long as i'm playing spells, it
don't matter.
I'm a very aggressive player. I like to make men and swing with them. or even
better, play combo and just win. I like throwing around cards. this whole
control nonsense is beyond me. i'm all about making lots of threats. I dislike
mono-blue control, and i make it a point to smash it whenever i can.
I just want to throw my hat in about the new cards, since everyone's been hatin' on them.
The problem with Kamigawa is that it's too theme oriented. They wanted to make a set with a cool theme, and they succeeded. But the cost was taken in playability. The development of the game took a backseat to theme, which has nothing to do with actual gameplay. This is not good for the overall health of the game. Masques block, Homelands, Fallen Empires and The Dark were backstory dominated, but these sets are basically awful, and while I don't think Kamigawa was as bad, it's clearly in that camp.
Mirrodin was *wonderful* from the perspective of advancing the gameplay. The power level was very high, in fact, they pushed the envelope to the point where bannings occured. You have cards like Thirst for Knowledge, Pentavus and Mindslaver that bascially enabled a new archetype in Vintage, which is now arguably the best deck in the format. But you don't want sets like this coming out all the time or else you get "power creep," where overall power of cards increases as time goes on.
So what I'm saying is that new cards rule. Old cards are awesome too, but most of those old cards we love so much are mistakes that, had the developers known then what we know now in hindsight, never would have been printed. The only way the game progresses is with new cards. If you want to take a look at Vintage pre-2000, you see what happens when the Magic stagnates. Monoblue everywhere. There was only one playable deck. Everything else lost to it. But then came Psychatog, the Madness mechanic, Onslaught fetchlands, Goblin Warchief, the Storm mechanic, Mindslaver, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Crucible of Worlds, Goblin Charbelcher and many others, and now Vintage is in an almost unintelligable state of flux.
Anyway, for the few of you who have been around this game as long as I have, I hope this makes some sense to you. For those of you who haven't, All I'm saying is that this is the best time to play magic ever. I wouldn't trade Magic today for Magic any time in the past.
Those are fighting words, playa. Hehe! My response isn't ">.<", although that's a good one! For the sake of argument I actually drop 3rd turn North Tree (because If you drop plains and no white weenies, I probably wouldn't overextend into a WoG like that.) You can bet games 2 and 3 I'll be sporting the ever sexy 3rd turn Plow Under. I hope you like drawing land
Another reason I like North Tree is just for that reason. You have to Wrath it or else it will probably kill you, thus clearing the way for me to play other threats. Course this gets more complicated if you run countermagic, but hey, I'm aggro. I make the threats an you have to answer or lose. White control is pretty solid, I know you've probably got some tricks i'm not thinking of of yet...
I have to agree with you, I really like the art of this block. Personally thrilled that Rebecca Guay is back in it. Best artist ever.
Which is why Kodama of the North Tree is my favorite card from Champions/Betrayers/Saviors. It even *looks* badass. 3rd turn North Tree is such a beating, I can't wait for Llanowar Elves to be Type 2 legal again...
Actually I'm kind of impressed with this set. I think my favorite card is Sakashima the Imposter. A tounament worthy Clone you say?? Celestial Kirin seems very strong, the potential for ridiculous board control is high. Ideas Unbound makes me very nervous, and I think hindsight will prove it was a mistake to have printed it. I really like Kuon, Ogre Ascendent. Mikokoro, Center of the Sea may be very good or incredibly average. Thoughts of Ruin is insanely good, and I think it singlehandedly turns the current Champions block constructed metagame on it's head. Pithing Needle is a card that will see play A LOT, definitely a chase rare. There's quite a few other cards I like also. Overall the set seems kind of weak, and I don't like the "cards in hand" theme, but I think there are enough interesting cards to make it worthwhile.
I'd also like to say that Path of Anger's Flame is ridiculous in draft. I smashed people a the pre-release all day long with it.
t goblinking: Firstly I must apologize, I got my oni confused. I meant to suggest Gutwrencher Oni who has trample. If you only have Painwracker Oni in play, you have to sacrifice it. But if you have no cards in your hand during your upkeep, Gutwrencher Oni doesn't care.
So the first thing you need to do is decide what you want out of your deck. Do you want to play aggressively or do you want to play control. If you think about a typical game, how do you want to win. Pick a philosopy. 3-Color with Hondens is going to be slow and ponderous, with a lot of investment put into a "lock," but you're going to have the inevitiability that the longer the game goes, the better your chances of winning. If you want to play aggressively, you need consistancy and redundancy, you want efficient creatures with low mana costs, and you want to attack as much as possible. This favors the green/black as you don't have to worry about getting three different colors of mana, and these colors tend to have very efficient creatures. Either of these decks is workable but it just depends on how you want to play the game. And when you choose cards, think about how it fits into your strategy.
I'll take Gutwrencher Oni as an example, since I discussed it before. This is a great top end threat for an aggressive deck. 5/4 for 5 mana makes it very efficient, and it has trample. It has an upkeep, but think of it this way: If you have no cards in your hand, you don't have to discard anything. When you play aggro, you empty your hand relatively fast. You should pretty much have nothing left in your hand when you play it, so the upkeep is negligable. It doesn't matter that you're not playing ogres, you don't have to. You still draw your card and you're most likely going to be able to play it so you won't have to discard. Also Gutwrencher Oni looooooves Strength of Cedars!
But if you look at a slower, control oriented deck, this is a bad choice. You're going to be discarding cards that you need to set up your late game. Efficient threats are less important since you have the time to develop your mana base and play a large, easily protectible threat.
Anyway, I got a little wordy... my bad.
I feel like I have to share this. I am the worst magic player EVER!
So I'm playing at a Trial for Grand Prix Minneapolis, it's Champions/Betrayers constructed. It's the last round before top 8, winner of the match goes on, loser goes home. We split the first two games, so it's all down to game 3. It's like turn 80 or so, the only thing either of us has in play is land. He plays Meloku on his turn and passes. I untap, play Time of Need for my own Meloku, and play it and they both die. In response, he makes 4 1/1 flying Spirit tokens. He untaps and serves for 4. I peel Kodama of the North Tree, drop it, and pass. He attacks for 4 and passes. I'm in trouble because my North Tree can't win that footrace.
But I peel Godo, Bandit Warlord, play it, and search out Umezawa's Jitte, attack with North Tree and pass. He attacks for 4, plays a Sakura-Tribe Elder and passes, leaving me at 3 . So I untap, draw, and attack with Godo. He elects not to block, takes 3, and my Jitte gets 2 counters. I then PASS THE turn!!!!!!
What is Godo's other ability?? He untaps and gets to attack again!!!!! But no, I leave him tapped and pass the turn. He attacks, I kill 2 1/1s with jitte, going to 1. So I untap, attack with Godo, get my 2 counters, and PASS THE TURN AGAIN!!!!
Oh, but it get's better. He peels Kodama of the North Tree and plays it, so both die. Now, with no blockers, he can attack with his Sakura-Tribe Elder, and 2 spirits. I can kill two with Jitte, but I can't block the other one, and I'm at 1 life, SO I SCOOP!
What is Jitte's third ability??? You can remove a counter to GAIN 2 life! So the play would be to kill 1 of the fliers and gain 2 life. But no. I had a better plan. My plan was to scoop and miss Top 8. You can see why my plan worked out so well...
Try this: Play red/black. Blademane Baku + spirits and arcane spells = large attacker. So run stuff like Glacial Ray and Horobi's Whisper for removal to clear the way. Thief of Hope is really good, I also like Wicked Akuba a lot, and the zuberas aren't terrible, Frostling either. Then you use Devouring Greed for your kill. All of that stuff is common, so it shouldn't be too hard to get. Oh, run that 5/4 fear demon, whatever he's called, he's a beater. If you have access to more valuable stuff like Kokusho or Yukora the Prisoner, that's pretty good too. It's not a deck that's going to win you any pro-tours, but it's kinda fun, and has a relatively quick clock. If you're looking for *fast* in Kamigawa though, you're not going to find it.
all i can say is that I've been playing Magic for like 9 years and I've never seen that at a tournament. Ever. I remember this one time we had a tournament at the local Mall, and this hot girl who worked at American Eagle came in and gave us all $10 off coupons. I think it was akward for her. *shrug*
If I may make a suggestion Impera, get a set of Natural Orders. You should be able to get a playset of 4 for under $10 on ebay or the like. It's like Tinker, except for fatties. You could cut down to more base green and run stuff like Llanowars, Fyndhorns, and Priest of Titania for acceleration. They can attack for 1, unlike birds, and you can Natural Order out Sliver Queen rather than casting it directly. Instead of burn, just Rancor up your Verdant and go straight to the dome, or if you need some extra "kill you," run old school Hurricane. That's what I would do anyway...
ok now i'm curious... how does your manabase support all that stuff? please tell me you run Natural Order... i don't know if this deck sounds all that agressive to me. you certainly have the "large man advantage," but when I think of aggro, I think of Jackal Pups and Rancor-ed Ghazban Ogres swingin it in. You even play those traitorous counterspells and are willing to give your opponent life by Swords!! argh! at least you have a sweet mox emerald
what do you run in extended? do you have any thoughts on the upcoming rotation in october?
Man, monoblack clerics is one of my favorite decks! Got the whole cabal archon/rotlung reanimator thing going with Graveborn Muse, I love Graveborn Muse. Necropotence taped onto a hill giant? I'll have some of that please. I love my plan vs control, Duress and Cabal therapies flying all over and when Braids hits play, good night.
Oh, in response to the one guy who asked why I dislike monoblue control, I don't agree with the control philosopy. I don't like being reactive, I'm proactive and agressive. Better to create threats than respond to them. There's an old piece of magic theory that says: "there are no wrong threats, only wrong answers." So, using my cleric deck as an example, I make the mono blue answers wrong by proactive discard. Then I attempt to wear away the counterspell wall (they can't counter everything), and lastly I drop GBM to bury them under card advantage or Braids to wreck their mana base.
i also find a lot of pleasure in beating "the unbeatable counterspell deck." I'm not saying that monoblue is bad, it's certainly proven over and over again that it is definitely top notch. But lots of people mistakenly think "counter everything" is a strategy, when it's really just a part of the greater puzzle. *shrug*
oh man, a group for magic nerds??? *pumps fist*
what up, guys? i guess introductions are in order. like, i dig anime and japanese culture and all that, but magic is my one true addiciton. I'm a walking encyclopedia of magic, a veritable well of decklists and magic theory. I consider myself a competitive player, as opposed to casual, cuz i usually try to break whatever format i'm playing. but as long as i'm playing spells, it don't matter.
I'm a very aggressive player. I like to make men and swing with them. or even better, play combo and just win. I like throwing around cards. this whole control nonsense is beyond me. i'm all about making lots of threats. I dislike mono-blue control, and i make it a point to smash it whenever i can.
anyway, i'll be around.